Platinum Arts Sandbox 2.8.1 Feedback Forum

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Mike
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Platinum Arts Sandbox 2.8.1 Feedback Forum

Postby Mike » November 13th, 2012, 10:11 am

Let us know what you think about the release :) Thanks! Here is the changelog:

Linux
* Packaged in a Tar file!
* fixed permission errors with install.sh script, and improved it for package creators. People who used the previous script SHOULD MAKE SURE TO CLEAN UP EVERYTHING CREATED/MOVED BY THE PREVIOUS SCRIPT!

Art
* Courtesy of northstar, mapmodel preview shots for over 163 models.

General changes
* Save map option in the editing menu
* getcurmap command extended to all game modules for getting the name of the current map.
* Fix model scripts that caused infinitely recursive loading of itself. (really this time)
* fix editfacewentpush behaviour when an entity is selected

FPS changes
* allow scrolling over an item entity to switch between items.
* dialogue restored to the Save The Princess maps

SSP changes
* make 2HP state a lighter yellow.
* enumerate pickups/boxes written by the exporter.
* fixed HUD paths and images
* fixed box rendering/collision offsets
* fixed lightning particles for "attracted" pickups.
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Re: Platinum Arts Sandbox 2.8.1 Feedback Forum

Postby kddekadenz » November 13th, 2012, 11:46 am

For everyone, who is too lazy to search the link, here he is: http://www.sandboxgamemaker.com/free-ga ... -downloads
Kelgar is an advanced RPG beeing developed in Sandbox

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Re: Platinum Arts Sandbox 2.8.1 Feedback Forum

Postby northstar » November 21st, 2012, 6:28 pm

to tell you the truth... i'm divided on this... while 2.8 brought alot to the program, i think it took away from it too... i seem to be fighting with too many broken links that worked fine in 2.7... while the new UI is very nice, i think it should have been used as an additive to 2.7, rather than an overhaul of it... all of the available information on the site is for 2.7, and little of it works in 2.8... so dont destroy the 2.7 wiki, just add a 2.8 until the right time comes...

now i can see that over time the 2.8 literature will be as in depth as 2.7, but i think they should have homes for themselves for now... the camps have been split and each has its place... for my tutorial i think i will be going back to 2.7, and maybe later i can work into 2.8 after it has developed... and maybe down the line make a hybrid of my own after a little more c++ 10... i think it will all depend on cube and how it improves...

i think i finally see the purpose of PAS... it took a few months... but i think i finally got it :)

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Re: Platinum Arts Sandbox 2.8.1 Feedback Forum

Postby Mike » November 23rd, 2012, 9:48 am

Thank you for your feedback!! I assume when you say "all of the available information on the site is for 2.7, and little of it works in 2.8" you mean the menu or is there something else? It'd really help a lot if you mentioned what parts of the menu aren't working so that they can be fixed :) Is there anything besides the menu that you like better in 2.7 vs 2.8? Thanks for your time and feedback, feel free to be blunt, that's how we make things better!!! Take care.
-mike
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Re: Platinum Arts Sandbox 2.8.1 Feedback Forum

Postby northstar » November 23rd, 2012, 2:56 pm

ahh... my bad mike... i think i'm referring more to the scripting 'language' for both the menus and for rpg games... the UI is beautiful, i love it, and the fixes really give it dimension... but but... for example, i'm still typing newent critter into the console be-cause the index slider doesn't work... and if i use the old tutorial for rpg scripting, half of the commands (or so) no longer exist, they have been changed to fit into the new UI...

compatibility still 'appears' to work... so its easier to script a game in 2.7, then bring it into 2.8 to make it work, and add new things...

but as far as the many hours of fun i had writing my own newgui's... well all of that is gone and useless...

but i'm not really an authority on anything, i'm not a programmer (like what the heck is a blip?) so i probably don't know what i'm talking about most of the time... but as an end-user... and the fact that this is only my third day of game scripting... well there's really no place to get 2.8 info (besides here)... so i will probably build my game in 2.7 and finish it in 2.8 (i can make cutscenes in 2.7 easy, but not in 2.8 [ it says command doesn't exist] )... like i say, i don't know much, but i do know that alot of stuff in 2.7 is just... gone... for rpg... maybe not so much for the FPS etc, i don't really venture there much, just rpg...

i hope that helps... stev

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Re: Platinum Arts Sandbox 2.8.1 Feedback Forum

Postby Hirato » November 23rd, 2012, 7:21 pm

northstar wrote:ahh... my bad mike... i think i'm referring more to the scripting 'language' for both the menus and for rpg games... the UI is beautiful, i love it, and the fixes really give it dimension... but but... for example, i'm still typing newent critter into the console be-cause the index slider doesn't work...

Thanks for the heads up, I clearly didn't consider the consequences of turning about 4 or 5 of the various types into dynamic templates

and if i use the old tutorial for rpg scripting, half of the commands (or so) no longer exist, they have been changed to fit into the new UI...

Wrong, they would've been changed even without the shift to the new UI system.


but as far as the many hours of fun i had writing my own newgui's... well all of that is gone and useless...

Unfortunate really, if it was possible to do some sort of "compatibility layer" I would've. Things just completely fallen apart when it comes to more dynamic menus and when it came to closing them via cleargui...
Having the two living side by side is just... silly...

(like what the heck is a blip?)

technical term for a thingie (another technical term) on a radar :obviously:
Actually the definition talks about a short, sharp, beep. Like what a radar would do if it detected something.

but i'm not really an authority on anything, i'm not a programmer (like what the heck is a blip?) so i probably don't know what i'm talking about most of the time... but as an end-user... and the fact that this is only my third day of game scripting... well there's really no place to get 2.8 info (besides here)

It looks like kddekadenz converted my tutorial to use the new syntax (props to him), but other than that, there's basically just tidbits of outdated information available for 2.7.0.
Anyways, you may want to pick up on enough C/C++ so you can parse the COMMAND macros in rpgscript.cpp, rpgconfig.cpp and rpgcamera.cpp, until we leave Alpha and enter beta with the RPG, documentation made by me will be almost non-existent.

so i will probably build my game in 2.7 and finish it in 2.8 (i can make cutscenes in 2.7 easy, but not in 2.8 [ it says command doesn't exist] )... like i say, i don't know much, but i do know that alot of stuff in 2.7 is just... gone... for rpg...


You're wrong again, things haven't gone missing... well, they have... but they were replaced by other, better, and more flexible things.
The cutscene subsystem is one of them, it was completely rewritten; the syntax, rules, and format have completely changed in regards to them.
For starters, you no longer reference cutscenes by index via an alias, but by the name of their script.
Another big change is the introduction of gradient functions, which basically define how the fade goes from 0 -> 1 or from 1 -> 0,
Also "containers" where introduced, this has the ability to group onscreen elements together (ie, so text is always drawn above slides or something in the background), as well as run various transformation on them, like rotate, scaling and translation, etc.
The new format for declarations use cs_* instead of r_cutscene, since the cutscene system is rather generic and can be integrated into the other game modules with little effort.

"mystara's" intro had a rather slipshod conversion to the new system, and there's also an example "death" cutscene in the base and default subdirectories.
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Re: Platinum Arts Sandbox 2.8.1 Feedback Forum

Postby kddekadenz » November 26th, 2012, 11:21 am

Hirato wrote:It looks like kddekadenz converted my tutorial to use the new syntax (props to him), but other than that, there's basically just tidbits of outdated information available for 2.7.0.
Anyways, you may want to pick up on enough C/C++ so you can parse the COMMAND macros in rpgscript.cpp, rpgconfig.cpp and rpgcamera.cpp, until we leave Alpha and enter beta with the RPG, documentation made by me will be almost non-existent.

You missed too, that I already wrote a program to output me a list of commands found in the source: http://www.sandboxgamemaker.com/wiki/in ... G_commands
With which version number the RPG will enter beta state? 3.0?
Kelgar is an advanced RPG beeing developed in Sandbox

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Re: Platinum Arts Sandbox 2.8.1 Feedback Forum

Postby Hirato » November 26th, 2012, 6:57 pm

kddekadenz wrote:You missed too, that I already wrote a program to output me a list of commands found in the source: http://www.sandboxgamemaker.com/wiki/in ... G_commands

It missed a bunch like r_script_signal_append, and even then...
r_select_ ## c
r_num_ ## c
r_select_ ## c
r_spawn_ ## type

:lol:

Also, I intended to put most of these in a command reference at the bottom of the general RPG Scripting page

With which version number the RPG will enter beta state? 3.0?

I don't know, but there is one criteria.
I need to be happy enough with the subsystems so that I won't rip them out and replace them.

On the main to do list...
  • AI
  • Dual wielding without duplicating a 'use' style for each hand
  • implement the "use_consume" use style
  • Re-implement hot-keys

after these are done, I'll consider it beta... and probably start maintaining compatibility
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Postby coopziana » December 10th, 2012, 9:09 am

Being a Massive RPG fanatic, I've been working with Sandbox since before 2.7.1.

The program (2.8.1) is still too far behind technologically for a "noob" (as it were) to make a game successfully using the RPG method.

The reason for this statement is simply because the program relies too much on having to manually code Critters, Triggers and other such things. If we look at another program such as "RPG Maker XP" you will see that all coding and script work is done within the program itself (and RMXP was released many years ago and has since been upgraded to RPG Maker Vista).

I strongly recommend the following to make the program 1,000 easier to use:

Within the program itself allow for options on Critters and triggers, for example "press F3" and select "New Critter" then (much like Lighting and other Map Models) allow for the user to select the Critter and press F3 again to then go on to customise the event, with options for Model, Speech & Responses, Faction, Weapons, and other such codes like reaction to responses like the below:

Action = "Oh hi, would you like to visit the City of Diago?"
Response1 = "Yes Please" (Instant Teleport to City of Diago and allow for co-ordinates to be placed)
Response2 = "No Thanks" (End Script)

I recommend you download and look at the options that RPG Maker XP has to give you some sort of guideline to making this 3D game creation program a huge cut above the rest.

As a Coder myself I am also still finding it a steep learning curve to understand the way the code works (though I only really use Web Design code) and having created over 100 items to test all these code snippets to see what they do, I have found that some still do not have any effect, though there is no error to suggest the code is invalid. For example, I created a set of leg armour and set the stats to increase Move Speed... When testing in Game it neither increases move speed or even recognises it in the "Tab" menu.

Also it is nice that there is the option to add Weight to items, however you cannot set it to a negative integer (to allow for the item to increase your Max weight Cap.) nor is there a status effect that allows for you to increase your maximum weight cap. Which if we look at it that the RC has stronger leg armour then it can hold more weight allowing the player to use different variations of armour and weapons.

It's also missing Faction points, Do a mission for the Blue Faction and gain Blue Faction points and likewise with Red faction, Done as a sort of Ying Yang, which faction do you support more and thus as a result change the hostility of Blue/Red Factions towards you. This could be done using variables, however would require a lot of research and understanding of the code to be able to set it up, which could take day's, weeks or even Months. Though if there was a simple option in-game to set this up (like in RMXP) it could take a matter of minutes.

So instead of manually having to create these files and enter the code yourself, The program should allow for the options in game and then simply save the files for you into the relevant folders. Then if you are a bit more advanced at coding you can go into the file and manually edit bits yourself should you feel the need to do something a little more special with the event.

Granted I have only really had a day working with 2.8.1 so I may have missed some new features making some aspects of this post null and void, however the main objective here is to raise the point that it needs to be made easier and less of a learning curve.

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Re: Platinum Arts Sandbox 2.8.1 Feedback Forum

Postby Hirato » December 10th, 2012, 1:08 pm

coopziana wrote:The reason for this statement is simply because the program relies too much on having to manually code Critters, Triggers and other such things. If we look at another program such as "RPG Maker XP" you will see that all coding and script work is done within the program itself (and RMXP was released many years ago and has since been upgraded to RPG Maker Vista).

I strongly recommend the following to make the program 1,000 easier to use:

Within the program itself allow for options on Critters and triggers, for example "press F3" and select "New Critter" then (much like Lighting and other Map Models) allow for the user to select the Critter and press F3 again to then go on to customise the event, with options for Model, Speech & Responses, Faction, Weapons, and other such codes like reaction to responses like the below:

Action = "Oh hi, would you like to visit the City of Diago?"
Response1 = "Yes Please" (Instant Teleport to City of Diago and allow for co-ordinates to be placed)
Response2 = "No Thanks" (End Script)

I recommend you download and look at the options that RPG Maker XP has to give you some sort of guideline to making this 3D game creation program a huge cut above the rest.


The "Game Maker" stuff on the other hand as far as I know are more primitive, and intended more for old-school JRPGs style games, which in turn creates a much simpler and more predictable structure. We don't have that, as we allow a lot of scripting it's just not possible to predict, our structure is very generic, and relies on the person responsible for making the game to script a lot of it.

And that's kind of the problem, the code for sandbox's RPG module is too generic, so we cant do this safely and easily; not to mention some things, like critters and items, have dynamic templates, this means every instance derived from the same base can have wildly differing values,

So the best we can do is added embedded texteditor blocks for every file and try to keep some sort of logical hierarchy. But this is going to be a horrible experience, you, me, and everyone involved would be much better off using a proper, dedicated text editor outside of sandbox. Not only would you have access to a much better editor, you could even have syntax highlighting and assorted other goodies, resulting in something that's far nicer than anything we'd ever be able to come up with.

As a Coder myself I am also still finding it a steep learning curve to understand the way the code works (though I only really use Web Design code) and having created over 100 items to test all these code snippets to see what they do, I have found that some still do not have any effect, though there is no error to suggest the code is invalid. For example, I created a set of leg armour and set the stats to increase Move Speed... When testing in Game it neither increases move speed or even recognises it in the "Tab" menu.

Also it is nice that there is the option to add Weight to items, however you cannot set it to a negative integer (to allow for the item to increase your Max weight Cap.) nor is there a status effect that allows for you to increase your maximum weight cap. Which if we look at it that the RC has stronger leg armour then it can hold more weight allowing the player to use different variations of armour and weapons.

STATUS_WEIGHT to augment weight; forcing positive item weights is intended behaviour.

Also if your leg armour isn't working properly, you configured it wrong.
You should make sure you used the "use_armour" type and that the associated statusgroup is configured properly with a non-zero multiplier. Also the effects themselves should have a duration of "-1" to work properly as a constant effect for the armour.

The code's really finicky, so you'll know if there's an error it can't handle, it may also help to turn on some debug channels, be very careful with "verbose." - it's really spammy.


It's also missing Faction points, Do a mission for the Blue Faction and gain Blue Faction points and likewise with Red faction, Done as a sort of Ying Yang, which faction do you support more and thus as a result change the hostility of Blue/Red Factions towards you. This could be done using variables, however would require a lot of research and understanding of the code to be able to set it up, which could take day's, weeks or even Months. Though if there was a simple option in-game to set this up (like in RMXP) it could take a matter of minutes.

So instead of manually having to create these files and enter the code yourself, The program should allow for the options in game and then simply save the files for you into the relevant folders. Then if you are a bit more advanced at coding you can go into the file and manually edit bits yourself should you feel the need to do something a little more special with the event.


You can do this via the so called global variables, but factions have existed for a long time. There are even utility calls in data/rpg/utility.cfg to make interacting with factions a whole heap easier. Heck, the default NPC script is littered with code that alters faction relationships for things like picking up owned items, attacking allies or outright killing them.



Granted I have only really had a day working with 2.8.1 so I may have missed some new features making some aspects of this post null and void, however the main objective here is to raise the point that it needs to be made easier and less of a learning curve.

Rome wasn't built in a day, short of redesigning everything to be more streamlined, or whatever buzzword have you, the only thing that will help are docs, examples, and tutorials.
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